Interview with Jack M. Sell

Thanks to Michael J. Wheldon's now defunct (and sadly missed) Psychotronic Magazine, the word 'psychotronic' has long been used to describe thousands of exploitative, cult, 'B' films that were previously dismissed as low-brow, cheap, odd, obscure, weird, strange, exotic, stupid, great and/or stunningly bad. I never really thought about it, but when I did, I figured the word was an ancient, old thing, but no. I was wrong.

Inventor of the word, film maker/teacher, art collector, director of The Captain Kangaroo show(!) and all round kool guy, I found Jack M. Sell online while searching for 'psychotronic' movies. Already a huge fan of his 1979 mentalus opus THE PSYCHOTRONIC MAN (referred to as PM from here on in), I asked for an interview straight away to get the 911 uptown Saturday night skinny on one of my favourite films from the director himself.

Remarkably, he agreed to chat about PM, his career, falling out of a helicopter and all the blood, sweat and beers it takes to make an independent feature film in the late 1970's and present day.

Born in Albany, Georgia, USA, Jack M. Sell found an early fascination with film.

JACK M. SELL: I started making 8mm movies when I was 10 years old. I always used my allowance to buy a roll of film. In high school, I made some documentaries that won awards and I was able to get a job at the local television station as a cameraman. Then, I used my films to obtain full paid scholarships to Columbia College and I agreed to make the school a recruitment film as part of my scholarship.

DF: Was PM your first feature or were there others? What sort of budget did you have?

JMS: It was my first feature film. I made some commercials for Peter Spelson (star of PM) for his insurance company and he wanted to finance and make a feature film. So, we started writing the script in 1978 and shot it in 1979. I came up with the word "PSYCHOTRONIC" from old research that had been done in the old Soviet Union. Thought it was a cool word, so I used it and made it the title of our film. The budget was $100,000, but probably ended up being $150,000 when it was all said and done. We shot only on weekends because we could rent the Panavision equipment on Friday afternoon and return it Monday morning and only pay for one day rental. So, we would shoot all Friday night, Saturday night and Sunday and drop dead around 8pm Sunday night. We did this for 8 weekends, so we had about a 14 day shooting schedule. It premiered in Chicago in May of 1979 and then 2 weeks later we were at the Cannes Film Festival showing it to buyers and distributors.

DF: How was it received?

JMS: The film was received pretty well. We had a lot of interested distributors and Stu Shapiro(INTERNATIONAL HARMONY), who did TUNNELVISION (76) basically told Pete and I that he wanted the movie and he was going to get it no matter what anyone else offered us! So we signed with him for the original USA theatrical rights. He designed the first poster with the floating car, did TV & radio spots and got it out into about 50 to 100 theatres, as I remember. It played worldwide, both in theatres, later on video and TV as well.
 

DF: What compelled you to make a horror movie? Did it achieve what you wanted?

JMS: I've always liked horror movies personally. I liked FRIDAY THE 13TH (80), but Peter didn't want much blood, violence or sex in PM.., we argued endlessly about this, but it was his money so he won. I'm not sure what I was trying to achieve except to make a feature film. Despite the awful acting by our "star", I used the film as a learning tool, how to shoot 35mm, edit, mix, score music - all the things I always loved doing on a smaller scale. I used to tell people I was shooting a feature film between my commercial work. My day job during the week was running my film company (we had 22 employees) and making TV spots and training films, sales & corporate videos etc. I was never happy with the acting in the movie and never will be. I did meet Jeffrey Katzenberg when he worked at Paramount who had just released FRIDAY THE 13TH. He wanted to buy PM outright for $1 million with one condition - we'd have to let him dub Pete Spelson's voice with a professional actor. And, since Pete was the majority stockholder in the film (I own 49%), he wouldn't take it. It was ego. I told him no one would ever know, but it didn't matter to him, so I told Jeffrey we had to pass on his offer. I wanted to cast Forrest Tucker as the 'Old Man' in PM, to get a name for the film, but Pete was afraid it would show him up! It was a small role and I thought it would help market the movie.., so, I cast Tucker in OUTTAKES (87) a few years later to give us a name and I think it helped us get our deal with SONY.

DF: How do you feel about the 'dubbing' incident now, would you do it if given the chance?
 
JMS: I wanted to dub Pete's voice back then, when Jeffrey Katzenberg made the offer, but legally I couldn't do it since I only owned 49% of the film. Today, I wouldn't do it out of respect for Pete's death and the fact that his performance is what has made the film a cult favorite.

DF: Who came up with the story? Why is Spelson's character (Rocky Fosco) a barber? And why does he drink a bottle of aftershave!?

JMS: Pete and I came up with the story. Pete wanted to make PSYCHO (60), thus the long driving scenes in the beginning of the film like Janet Leigh! I always hated that section. It was my idea to give him psychotronic powers since I was always interested in ESP and the research done by the Russians. Pete's barber WAS Rocky Fosco!, so we used his name and his barber shop to shoot in. He's drinking booze out of a plastic liquor flask. He hides it in with the barber bottles so he can sneak a swig. He also drinks from it at other times in the movie. We thought his hangovers might bring on these powers he has. Of course, he's even drinking while he's driving - politically incorrect today. Also, I used to get these horrific migraine headaches when I was younger, so I worked some of that into his hangovers. Of course, I had a migraine almost every weekend while we were shooting from lack of sleep. But hey, when you're 24, you're invincible and can do anything.

DF: How did you meet with Peter Spelson and the rest of the PSYCHOTRONIC cast? The movie seems to have a tiny crew.

JMS: I met Pete doing some TV spots for his insurance company. We started with a crew of about 30, but by the middle of the shoot, we lost about half of those since they were mostly unpaid. So we ended up with a lot of friends and family, mainly my girlfriend at the time and some of the people from my film company. There were scenes when I would start the camera and the Nagra.., then run out and clap the clapperboard and run back behind the camera to shoot the scene. I wrote the theme song and Pete's nephew, Tommy Irons and his band scored all the music. I conducted it in a great recording studio for 5 days. Since my dad was a band director I'm also a musician and love conducting a band/orchestra.

DF: Who would you say influenced your movie making? Are you a fan of cinema?

JMS: Early on it was Altman. I snuck in to see MASH (72) when I was 14 or 15 and just loved it. I'm also a big fan of all the James Bond films, and of course, Alfred Hitchcock. I watch almost everything. I used to review films for a newspaper when I was in high school because they gave me free movie passes. I like big budget, small budget, cult, horror, I love Sci-Fi and comedy, even some chick flicks. My favorite films are BLADE RUNNER (82), ALIEN (79), GONE WITH THE WIND (39), THE BIRDS (63), THE IN-LAWS (79), SAME TIME NEXT YEAR (78), and Bond films.

DF: I read somewhere you filmed PM 'on the fly' in Chicago without getting city permits.

JMS: It was wild.., we were the first movie ever shot in modern day Chicago. Mayor Daley (The Dad) would never let any film crew into the city because he thought they'd make Chicago look like a city full of mobsters. But, then he died and we started filming. We didn't get any permits because there was no film office! So, we were racing the cars around Lake Shore Drive shooting out of a trunk at 70 MPH! Next night, I was hanging out of a helicopter shooting those same scenes. Pete gaffer taped the Panavision camera to my arm, saying the camera was more valuable than I was. So, over Lake Michigan, we hit an air pocket as I was hanging out of the helicopter and I went half way out the door before the wind blew me back in again. My harness had come off because I was moving all around shooting the chase scenes and didn't even realize it. I still have nightmares about that moment! Of course, it was nothing when it happened. It also helped that we hired some off duty cops to drive the fake police cars and shoot off blank guns on Michigan Avenue. We were out on the streets of Chicago racing cars around town and shooting off guns everywhere for 5 weekends and no one ever asked for a permit. Of course, when we shot OUTTAKES with Forrest Tucker a few years later, we had to have permits for EVERYTHING!

DF: Was there much discussion over plot or content?

JMS: HOURS and HOURS of fuckin' arguments! Pete and I argued about the story forever, for months, as we wrote the script. I wanted to make the film bloodier, more like a Sci-Fi slasher and he wanted to make it more like an Alfred Hitchcock film. That's why Pete is driving for fucking forever in the opening of the movie, because that's what Janet Leigh did in PSYCHO! Pete kept telling me you need to disarm the audience before you scare them. I kept saying, "Pete, the audience will be asleep by the time you get around to scaring anyone!"

DF: Would you have amped up the blood and violence if Peter hadn't been against it?

JMS: ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY! I screened the movie with Mark Tenser who owned CROWN INTERNATIONAL, he's loving it. Called his marketing director down to the screening room. But then the love scene came on. He dropped his big cigar and said 'Where's the tits? Where are the goddamned tits! Do you have any other footage of that broad's tits, anything we could use?' Of course, Pete wanted it to be a "family" film so we had no nudity. Mark didn't even finish watching the movie he was so mad. I learned my lesson on that one. When I did OUTTAKES and DEADLY SPYGAMES (89). Plenty of nudity and blood in both of those.., that's why SONY bought OUTTAKES, because we went crazy, making it like a SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE movie 'on acid' as one critic called it.

DF: About Peter Spelson's 'acting', who would you like to cast 'ideally'?
 
JMS: Well, I would love to remake PM With Johhny Depp! He would certainly put a great spin on the character. A blue collar barber who is a cross between Sweeney Todd and Jack the Pirate! Back then, I would have loved to have cast Vincent Price. We had signed John Carradine for DEADLY SPYGAMES but the limo driver who was picking him up at the Chicago airport the day before the shoot called me that night and said Carradine wasn't on the flight. I then got a call from LA that he had died earlier that day.., Oy, what timing. I called an actor/friend of mine, Bob McDonald (a local Chicago actor) to fill in for him and be on the set at 5am. I still have a copy of the cashier's check for Carradine for $15,000 that he would have been paid after shooting was completed.

DF: Would you let Hollywood remake it now?

JMS: Sure, I had even written a sequel that USA Network had optioned, but never got made. Our contact/exec left and new people came in. SEQUEL: I had the PM working for the government, helping some top secret operation against aliens.
 
DF: What age demographic were you aiming for?

JMS: Young, typical horror audience.., we wanted it commerical. I was only 24.

DF: Getting back to Cannes, what other titles were out at that time? What movies were you up against?

JMS: I remember a horror movie, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME (80) was being sold. But, this is my best Cannes story ever! A nice English girl had set up a card table outside our office door at Cannes in the hall and was selling her little animated film. We talked a bit every day, and then, her husband showed up about a week later to take her to lunch! She introduced me to her hubby, PAUL McCARTNEY. I didn't connect Linda McCartney with him and didn't know who she was or that she was a filmmaker! Wow, what a shock. I just kept saying, 'You're Paul McCartney,' and he kept saying 'Yes, I know!' Oy. I'm a HUGE Beatles fan, 2nd only to Elton John - we've been going to Elton's concerts since the late 1970's! Just saw him and Billy Joel last month here in Tampa.

DF: What Countries bought the rights to PM in Cannes?
 
JMS: We sold almost everywhere. Spain was the first country to buy and we got them to agree to give us a dubbed Spanish soundtrack that we could sell to other Spanish speaking countries. We sold to Mexico, Puerto Rico and many South American countries since we already had a dubbed Spanish soundtrack. We did the same with France. The French distributor gave us a big premiere in Paris and a dubbed French soundtrack which we then sold to Quebec. It did well in Greece since Pete's family was Greek, did great in the UK with theatre, TV and video deals. It's weird what some countries will like. DEADLY SPYGAMES did really well in France and is still airing every year on French TV. And, the Dutch loved OUTTAKES. Go figure! The first time we went to Cannes, it was me and Peter. We went 2 other times after that too to represent our other features as well. We also took all 3 movies to MIFED (Milan Film Festival) and AFM in Beverly Hills, too. All 3 are the best film markets.

DF: I know of several VHS releases of it, two in Holland during the 1980's, in Switzerland and France it's been retitled BOMBERMAN, do you know where else it's been unleashed worldwide?

JMS: I heard about the REVENGE OF THE PSYCHOTRONIC MAN band in the UK. That's great and they did a cool video on Youtube. I really like the BOMBERMAN campaign in Europe. I made my college age daughter a pair of PSYCHOTRONIC MAN underwear for Christmas and a copy of the movie on DVD. She's never seen my films! Bruce is in the biz, but Jacqueline always hated filmmaking. When she was growing up, she'd say 'Dad, you work too hard.., show biz is not for me'. She's majoring in history and going into politics. She did watch OUTTAKES the other day with some of her friends and she calls me at 1am in the morning laughing about how I could have made this! This is so embarrassing! 'Dad, every Blockbuster in the country had this movie...oh my God, I never knew what my friends were talking about!' She took a film appreciation class this past summer and her professor saw her name and asked her if her Dad had ever made a movie called PSYCHOTRONIC MAN. She hesitantly said yes.., he asked her if she could get him a signed copy of the film. He got it, but only after her finals because she was scared he'd show it in class. She said he was showing it this semester. He wants me to talk to the class but I really hate public speaking, so I'll pass. She did get an A, so Dad is good for something.

DF: You mentioned the great Forrest Tucker, who else have you fond memories of?

JMS: I've had the privilege of working with many great actors.., I LOVE ACTORS!  They're all very fragile and get beat up with rejection so much, I really feel for them. I loved working with Tippi Hedren, Linda Evans, Lloyd Bridges, Jimmy Carter, Muhammad Ali. But, I also have a ton of respect for hundreds of other working actors who act their heart out and don't make a lot of money doing it. I loved working with so many of them that the public will never know their names, but I just love them all. Working on a movie set with any actors, stars or not, is a fantastic experience for a director. I loved every single day I've spent working on a set. And I enjoyed 99% of these actors.., Forrest Tucker was the 1% I didn't.

DF: If PM was a testing ground for your film making skills, what was the most important thing you learned? And what advice would you pass on to a first time feature maker?

JMS: JUST DO IT! Don't just talk about making 'that movie' you want to shoot. It is HARD FUCKING WORK and will cost you 3 YEARS OF YOUR LIFE! So, you need to get started NOW. Start writing the script, start shooting the film on weekends, whenever you can, edit it at night after a long day at your day job! WHATEVER IT TAKES. When I was editing DEADLY SPYGAMES I needed $18,000 to pay the editing house or they wouldn't give me my movie. So, I sold my prized Nissan Z sports car the next morning, paid those fucking assholes and took my movie to Milan and ended up getting a great review in fucking VARIETY! It was worth it as sales started pouring in. Everyone will find a different path to get their movie made, but most of the people I know or knew, always talked about the great 'movie' they're going to make and.., 20 years later, they're still TALKING about it. GIVE ME A BREAK. Get off your ASS and get started, yeah, you'll starve, you'll cry, you'll lose your girlfriend, probably have to sell your car and you'll owe $$$ to everyone and their mother. IT IS A HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS, but that's why you've got to LOVE IT! If you feel you want to make a movie more than anything in your whole fucking life, then go do it. But please, don't sit around talking about it for 20 friggin' years either.., I don't want to hear it. 

DF: Despite all the releases too few have seen PM. Those that have fail to give it the kudos it more than deserves. Are you unhappy it's been overlooked while far worse films from the era have been revamped and re-released with the recent 'grindhouse' craze?
 
JMS: Nope, not at all.., I have no regrets about anything in my life! I've had a terrific life, full of fun, adventures all over the world, great kids, 3 feature films, hundreds of commercials and videos under my belt and now I'm just laid back! I used to work 7 days a week, 15 hours a day and was nothing but work driven. I made millionaire dollars when I was 25, but wouldn't do it again because it was just too hard. OUTTAKES got picked up by SONY and we bought ourselves a beautiful home (the house that OUTTAKES built we call it!) My stepson, Bruce Richmond, still lives in LA and is the VP of all west coast production at HBO and my wife still travels once a month to Chicago to work at an ad agency she's a shareholder in, so we keep busy. My interests have turned to art, antiques & collectibles the past decade. I did move to Tampa, Florida from LA to direct the new Captain Kangaroo show for Saban Entertainment. The show lasted a couple of years, but then got cancelled. I guess if I wanted to get back into promoting my films again, I would get them some more attention, but my interests have just changed over the years.

DF: What was the Captain Kangaroo show like to manage?

JMS: It was a huge production, great Florida cast and crew, since we didn't shoot in LA, they tried harder to prove they're as good or better than their Hollywood counterparts and I think they succeeded.

DF: Do you have any plans to re-release PM on DVD? with commentary and extras? It's the 30th.

JMS: That would be great to put out a 30th anniversary edition of PM. I started doing a documentary to go with the feature, but just haven't finished it.

DF: What are you doing now? What films are you working on?

JMS: My wife and I just got back from Aruba! BRAINPOWER is an MTV winner of Hip Hop and we signed a deal with him to represent his work on the Internet. He's working on an English speaking album to release in the States, so we're helping him with that too. He says SICK a lot. These days, I mostly buy and collect art, autographs and collectibles. I work from time to time as an DGA assistant director on films that are being shot in Florida. There aren't many DGA ads in Florida. I directed a live convention for the United Auto Workers at DISNEYWORLD for 5 days...it was a real kick. I even got to do the announcing for the fireworks display at the park. I went to Disney when I was a kid.., who would have thought years later I'd be working there. WOW! It was SICK!

DF: Living in Florida, have you ever crossed paths with fellow psychotronic film maker William Grefe? 

JMS: No,
 
DF: He worked on the speed boat unit for Moore's 007 debut LIVE AND LET DIE (73) and made tons of great and bad movies down in Florida.

JMS: I don't think I've met him, but I'm a fan of every single Bond movie ever made, Except CASINO ROYALE (67)!

DF: Any final words of wisdom?

JMS: Making a movie is 95% DOWN IN THE MUD, MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, Hard Fucking Work! Only 5% glamourous, yeah, it's very cool to walk the red carpet at Cannes and have a hundred photographers taking pictures of you.., even though they don't know you from shit.., but if it's just the glamour and parties you really want, then just BUY A TICKET!

Interested in seeing any of the movies discussed? You can get the films or contact Mr. Sell through his website: http://www.sellcommunications.net/

© DF Dresden 2009